Counseling the Counsel: The Emotional Reality of Legal Work

Episode Notes

Transcript

Rocky Dhir:

Hi, and welcome to the State Bar of Texas Podcast. My dear friend, Mike Maslanka, professor at UNT Dallas College of Law, often quotes from Yates who wrote in relevant part, really sound like a nerdy lawyer. When I say that irrelevant part, who talks like that, apparently I do. So anyway, Yates, he wrote in one of his poems, those that I fight, I do not hate. Those that I guard, I do not love. Those words come from his poem. An Irish airman foresees his death. Now, I’m no literary expert, and I absolutely suck at finding the hidden meanings in art. But the poem, in its most literal sense, seems to talk about how the fighter pilot simply did his duty, which ultimately was going to lead to his death. And as I read it, the poem sounds almost bereft of emotion. Professor Maslanka uses it to underscore the lawyer’s duty to advocate for the client without getting emotionally attached.

My problem with Professor Lanka’s lesson is, well simply, it’s just too hard to do. I mean, I’m weak. I am, I get lazy. I get drawn into the emotional drama inherent in conflicts. Conflicts like insurance subrogation and ERISA regulations. And I’m trying to maintain my composure as I talk about those topics. But look, hitting aside, lawyers often have to not only play advocate, but also counselor. They often call us counselor. We have to help shepherd our clients through the turmoil of the litigation process and the events that led the parties to the Courtroom. Think for example, a family law cases where issues like child custody, infidelity, they can raise temperatures or personal injury cases, parties wrangle over who was at fault. And even what sounds like a dry breach of contract case, significant sums of money are at stake. So how do we as lawyers balance the legal with the emotional? It’s a question that can confound even the most seasoned attorneys. So to help us wrestle with this question, we have Alicia Freeman, a clinical professional with TA, the Texas Lawyers Assistance Program. She’s a licensed professional counselor, and she’s also host of the podcast. My therapist needs a therapist. Well, now the counselors need a counselor, so Alicia knows a thing or two about counseling people through emotionally charged situations. So who better to help us understand how to help those who come to us? So Alicia, welcome.

Alicia Freeman:

Thank you. Thank you. I’m glad to be here.

Rocky Dhir:

Oh, we’re glad to have you. Now look, let’s maybe start by talking about litigation. That’s where conflict happens. So what impact does litigation have on a client’s mental health? I mean, just from a professional standpoint,

Alicia Freeman:

Some of the main things that we see quite often is, well, it’s important to note, let me start there. That when we’re dealing with litigation or talking about litigation, it could be prolonged, it can be unpredictable, it can cause a lot of emotional distress, and it can also cause trauma, right? Retelling those stories, especially when we’re talking about family law and criminal law, all of those traumatic incidents that are dealt with on a regular basis in these particular practices. And so when you’re constantly being exposed to these traumatic events or having to talk about ’em or having to relive those stories, oftentimes you find clients who don’t know how to deal with the emotional distress that comes along with that. And not even just the emotional distress. You’re dealing with anxiety, depression, financial issues, all these different things that come up with just having to deal with this case in and out until the end of it, right? And no, you want to have an idea timeline on how long a case lasts. Sometimes you just don’t know, and that’s where the unpredictability comes through.

Rocky Dhir:

I find sometimes that when clients are coming to the lawyer, they want vindication, whether they’re the criminal defendant or whether they’re the civil defendant or the plaintiff. And then they find this unpredictability, that process doesn’t play out the way they thought it would, and they start getting very frustrated. So is there a term for that in the psychological counseling world, or is that something that’s unique to what we as lawyers face

Alicia Freeman:

When we talk about emotional distress? Those are the symptoms of it, the frustration, the overwhelm, the not being able to regulate emotions and handle it and accept things as they are. All of that kind of falls under the umbrella of emotional distress. And I would say when we talk about uniqueness, yes, when we’re talking about this particular set of emotions and distress that a client is dealing with will look different from say a doctor seeing a client or a counselor working with a client, right? Because we’re focusing on different subsets of that client. So you go to a doctor’s office, they’re looking at, well, what are the problems and how can I fix it? You come to a counselor and it’s like, okay, how do we work through those problems? But when we’re talking about a lawyer, you have to accept the problems as they are. You’re not always set up with the correct tools that you need in order to help that client kind of work through those emotions.

Rocky Dhir:

What about the impact on the lawyer in dealing with all this? How does representing clients in conflict situations affect lawyer wellbeing? And I’m sure you see that all the time in T Lab, right?

Alicia Freeman:

Absolutely. I mean, it affects lawyers in different ways, and I always say what matters is the tools that you’re equipped with. If you’re a new lawyer who haven’t experienced a client yet, who doesn’t know how to, let’s say, self-regulate or come to you and expect you to have all the answers immediately and they don’t know how to deal with that, that creates more stress for the attorney and dealing with that stress, you’re already talking about the workload, the hours that you’re working, having multiple clients at multiple times, and then still trying to be the best attorney that you can be. Of course, you’re going to take on some of those emotions of the client, and we call that compassion fatigue. We call it secondary trauma. When we are looking at compassion fatigue, we’re talking about,

Rocky Dhir:

I didn’t know this was a thing. That’s kind of cool. There’s a term for it. I kind of like that. I mean, at least there’s something to describe it. I didn’t know there was.

Alicia Freeman:

Absolutely. It’s something that we’ve actually tried to educate attorneys on whenever we’re going across the state and providing our presentations is talking about compassion fatigue, because those are one of the top, I would say symptoms of working with clients that most attorneys, if not all, have experienced at one point or another in the practice of law. So we’re talking about compassion fatigue. You get overwhelmed, you get distress. It’s hard for you to kind of empathize as much as you used to empathize because you’ve taken on so much and you haven’t set healthy boundaries

Rocky Dhir:

With compassion fatigue. Does this mean that the lawyer stops empathizing the way he or she used to and kind of becomes kind of a little bit maybe more cold or distant? Or is it that the lawyer starts to get an impact on his or her mental wellbeing because of having to deal with the trauma that the clients bring into the office?

Alicia Freeman:

So it’s both. So let’s back up a little. When we’re talking about an attorney who goes to law school, typically they go to law school because they want to help someone.

Rocky Dhir:

I wanted to help myself get a Starbucks gift card, but okay,

Alicia Freeman:

Sure. But over time, when you go into it and that’s your focus and you’re trying to help, but then you’re not always getting the result that you want or there’s the result that the client expects, it starts to have a effect on you. And then from there, you have these clients that you’re dealing with who again, have such high needs and high priorities and expect so much from you. You start to over time, separate the empathy. You start to stop seeing the client and just seeing the problem and it’s like, oh, okay, let me put this issue in a category and separate it from the client and not really concern myself with the impact that it has on client, but focus on the result. And that’s when you start to lose that empathetic piece that empathy is you’re no longer looking at the client and what their needs are and how it’s affecting them. You’re just seeking result. And we see it a lot, and I won’t say it’s on purpose, it just kind of happens over time when you’ve become overwhelmed and you start to stop checking in with yourself to see what’s happening with you.

Rocky Dhir:

We often talk about these things in the litigation context, and that’s what most people see on tv and in movies, it’s all about the Courtroom. But do these issues pop up in non-litigation contexts as well?

Alicia Freeman:

Absolutely. I mean, we can look at probate and estate. You’re working with clients who are probably dealing with the state issues because of a loss of a family member. And so now you’re dealing with a totally different group of people compared to those in the litigation realm, but you’re still dealing with the impact of the client, still dealing with the client’s emotions, and that actually could be a little bit more isolating because you don’t necessarily have the support that you would say working in a law firm.

Rocky Dhir:

I’m trying to think of those poor mergers and acquisitions lawyers who are dealing with the trauma of their clients making a whole bunch of money. But

Alicia Freeman:

You’ll be surprised

Rocky Dhir:

I probably would be because learning a lot here. So Alicia, we do need to take a quick break and hear from one of our sponsors, and when we come back, let’s dive a little bit into what lawyers can do to help their clients through these situations. So now that we’ve kind of understand some of the lingo and we’ve heard about compassion fatigue, we’re going to come back and figure out what that means in the context of lawyer’s duties. So we’ll be right back. Stay tuned to everybody. And we are back with Alicia Freeman. She’s a clinical professional with TAP, and we’re learning all about the lawyer as counselor, and that’s a role that we oftentimes have to play and sometimes we get emotionally wrapped up in our client’s cases. And is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? So we’ve learned about compassion fatigue.

We’ve learned about some of the groundwork that goes into the mental health issues, both for the lawyer and the client. Alicia, during the break, I was thinking about the movie Aaron Brockovich, and for those that haven’t seen it, it’s a true story about a paralegal who helped win a multimillion dollar case against a power company for things that they did. You have to go see the movie, but there’s a scene in there. Aaron Brockovich the character, she was very involved with the clients. She knew about their personal lives, she got all in it. She went into their homes, she would’ve dinner with them. They all got really emotionally connected to her. And then when new counsel came in to take over the case, that lawyer was very clinical, said, I don’t want emotion. Just give me the facts, just tell me what happened when. And the clients didn’t like her very much, and the movie depicts it as if that second lawyer was doing something bad, whereas Aaron was doing something right. As a clinical professional, do you agree or disagree with the premise? Should lawyers be more like Aaron Brockovich or should we be more like the clinical lawyer?

Alicia Freeman:

I think lawyers should identify where their boundaries stand and keep with those boundaries. When we’re dealing with clients, I think it’s important to know your client to a degree of understanding their needs and how best to support them. But I also think it’s important to establish boundaries and limit the overexposure to their personal lives because without having boundaries, healthy boundaries, let me note that you start to lose what you’re here for. You start to do things that maybe you’re limited in doing as an attorney. Maybe you can’t be their mental health therapist, but now you’re stuck in the office listening to your client cry for hours and you’re just taking that in instead of saying, Hey, I’m here for you. I’m here to support. Here’s some resources, but I can’t help you with this because I don’t want to give you the wrong information. I can only do so much in this realm. Actually identifying that I hear so many times over and over, my clients called me after hours late at night, overnight asking questions, and it’s like, well, why is it? Do you blame the client or do you blame the attorney? That’s what I mean when I say boundaries. Establishing those boundaries, knowing your client, right? Having that relationship to where it’s effective, it’s supportive, but also establishing, but I’m here to do this particular work.

Rocky Dhir:

Are there boundaries you recommend to lawyers that you say, Hey, here’s some do’s and don’ts, or is it individual to each practitioner?

Alicia Freeman:

I think it’s individual depending on the type of F law that you’re practicing. Because let’s be honest, I haven’t met many attorneys that have regular working hours, right? So what does that look like for you? Do you want to, now some basic ones is if you’re having dinner with your family, should you be answering a phone call for a client if it’s not an emergency situation? And most of the time, is it an emergency situation? I could say probably not, but that’s not up to me to determine do I want to be on a vacation? And I put that in air quotes because yeah, we don’t have vacation in this, don’t have vacation, but do you really work with lawyers? You’re using the term vacation. I always get a raised eyebrow whenever I bring up the term vacation. I think it’s triggering for most attorneys,

Rocky Dhir:

That’s called retirement, if that’s even a thing anymore.

Alicia Freeman:

But we are making a joke of it, but it’s so important. Self-care is so important. Establishing those boundaries, so important. Actually defining time for yourself, your family, your friends, outside of work. It’s so important. So when I talk about boundaries, it’s not just within work, it’s your life as a whole.

Rocky Dhir:

I think the question that a lot of lawyers have and the things that we struggle with is trying to maintain those boundaries like you talked about. But then at the same token, not losing your humanity in the process. So if you’ve got a crying client in your office who needs help and support telling them to go talk to a professional, that doesn’t help ’em in that moment. But then on the other hand, if you set those boundaries, then you’re becoming more clinical. You’re hearing about these terrible things that have happened to this person, and you’re having to just say, okay, now next question. And so how do you kind of balance those things?

Alicia Freeman:

Well, I think we kind of micro made that a little bit more micro because what I’m saying is that yes, you don’t want to say, oh, stop crying and go see a therapist, right?

Rocky Dhir:

It’s

Alicia Freeman:

Allowed that safe space. If they’re crying in your office, that means they’re in a safe space. But at a certain point you have to recognize this may be a reoccurring thing. How do I support them? So if they feel that they’re getting to a point where they can’t deal with whatever it may be going on, whether it’s case related, financial related, whatever, they have resources that they can refer to.

Rocky Dhir:

Are there skills that we lawyers have that actually can help clients where we can shepherd those to help counsel clients through difficult moments like that? I mean, are there skills we can count that we can call upon without intruding on the province of the actual licensed therapists like you?

Alicia Freeman:

Absolutely. I mean, attorneys, I would say if they’re going into becoming a lawyer or going into law school for the right reasons, they’re naturally focused on being empathetic. All of those things are important with establishing a relationship with the client. You’re trained to issue spot, right? So you already know coming into a client, oh, I see these things. I can help identify these things. You may already have the resources available, provide those on the front end. But I would say some of the main things is that organization, that empathy, that client-centered approach is very important to just know who you’re working with and also being aware of where your limitations are as an attorney.

Rocky Dhir:

What about the risks as a lawyer? I mean, if we try to sympathize or empathize, I mean, if you’re not careful, that can go too far and pretty soon this person starts relying on you emotionally and now if you pull that back, then they get upset or they feel like you’ve committed malpractice and there might be a grievance. I mean, who knows what happens? I mean, are there risks you see in your line of work for us?

Alicia Freeman:

Well, I think it’s important to note sympathy versus empathy. Sympathy is taking all the emotions of the client. Empathy is saying that I hear you and I understand, and I think that’s the biggest thing is that oftentimes people go into work sympathizing and taking on those emotions and thinking it represents empathy when it doesn’t. And I think that often calls a lot of blurred lines, whereas empathy is saying, I have this awareness. I understand this is what you’re going through. I’m going to support you as best I can, but also understand I can only do so much. And by verbalizing that and communicating that and upholding those boundaries, you tend to have healthier relationships with your clients.

Rocky Dhir:

I don’t think most lawyers even understand this. It sounds like a clinical distinction between sympathy and empathy, which I’ve heard and I’ve read, but I’ve never understood. So let’s maybe use an actual example. Alright, I have a client in my office, she’s a victim of domestic abuse, something very serious, and she needs help both criminally as well as possibly civilly getting herself out of this situation. She’s in my office, she’s crying. It’s obviously a very emotionally charged situation. In that case, what would be sympathy versus what is empathy? Can you help me understand that distinction?

Alicia Freeman:

So sympathy would be doing the work for them, calling the people for calling resources for them, finding a counselor for them, doing the work that they would have to do on their own. Right now, you’ve created a dependent relationship as to saying, Hey, these are some resources. Here’s a list of shelters, here’s a list of therapists, trauma, specialized therapists, whatever. Here’s even this number that you can call to get even more resources, right? It’s doing for them versus providing for them, right? Providing the resource or doing the work for them.

Rocky Dhir:

In that scenario, are there times when a lawyer should err on the side of sympathy versus empathy? For example, if that same client is in a position where for some reason she can’t call these resources, she feels like her phone is being watched or whatever’s going on at that point, when do we switch from empathy to sympathy and vice versa?

Alicia Freeman:

I think at that point you should call and get a secondary opinion on how to handle that situation. Because again, we’re talking about something that is so specific that it’s hard to determine what the need is. Is this a client where maybe they always need something and so now it’s become a situation to where they know they can ask you for something? Or is a situation where, okay, this is a one time thing. This hasn’t happened before. I’ve been working with this client for a while. Let me get them connected to who can provide more resources for them. You’re still putting it back in their hands.

Rocky Dhir:

There’s a lot more to talk about here. We do need to take another quick ad break when we come back. We’re going to continue on with this. This is absolutely fascinating and I’m learning a lot. Hopefully the listeners are learning as well. Take notes. This is good stuff. We’re going to be right back with Alicia Freeman. Stay tuned. We’re back with Alicia Freeman. Man, this is getting interesting. My mind is blown. So we’ve talked about compassion fatigue. We’ve talked about sympathy versus empathy. Alicia, let’s talk a little bit about do’s and don’ts now. First, are there practice areas that are more prone to needing to understand this difference where clients will need more counseling versus less counseling on an emotional slash mental level? Are there certain practice areas you think are more susceptible to that?

Alicia Freeman:

I mean, absolutely. You have attorneys who deal with high risk clients, whether they’re in the legal system. We’re talking about criminal, right? We have maybe clients who are in jail or incarcerated or on trial and may potentially go to jail. You have families who are in crises or are dealing with children who have experienced abuse or neglect. Absolutely. You have attorneys who are more prone to deal with compassion fatigue and secondary trauma.

Rocky Dhir:

In your experience, what are some of the successful ways attorneys have dealt with those situations versus some of the ways in which maybe it wasn’t quite so healthy? I mean, have you seen those on the front line?

Alicia Freeman:

Absolutely. The attorneys that I’ve seen who are able to better handle the work that they’re doing, have their own set of skills that they’ve already established.

Rocky Dhir:

It sounds like Liam Neeson from Taken, they bring a very particular set of skills.

Alicia Freeman:

Yeah, you count how many turns you make, right? You’ve already set up yourself for success.

Rocky Dhir:

That’s not going to work in Austin, though. We all know that. Too many turns.

Alicia Freeman:

I dunno. It depends. How good is your memory and attention span, right? But what’s important right now, what we are doing as T Lab is we’re trying to go into the law schools and we’re trying to create that awareness and provide those trainings and that education around how important it is to establish your own mental health routine. And one thing is important to note that things are going to come up that maybe you haven’t dealt with before, but what’s important is the tools on how do you handle those triggers? How do you handle those stressors? Are you seeing a therapist? Do you already have awareness around what your triggers are? Do you have self-care routine already established? Have you figured out that workload balance? Right? I always tell people when we’re talking about work versus life balance, it’s going to shift over time depending on the work that you’re doing. But what’s important is noting like, where am I and do I need to make some adjustments? So I think that foundation is more important than kind of dealing with things case by case, because if you know who you are, you’ve already done the work around your own life stressors, then you’re more equipped to handle anything that you deal with in the practice of law.

Rocky Dhir:

In TV and in movies, we see this image of lawyers and then the reality is obviously far different. When you’re at the law schools, are there certain kind of myths or stereotypes that you’ve had to bust for law students and tell ’em, Hey, you see this on tv, that’s not how it is. Here’s the better way to handle it. I mean, have you ever had to come across that?

Alicia Freeman:

I would say not myth busting, but I would say some of the prominent issues that we see in law schools are imposter syndrome, perfectionism and overuse of technology. I know that sounds crazy, right? Because everything is electronic and although some schools still have books and everything, but I would say the strive for perfection definitely is enhanced in law school. It’s a competitive nature. You want to go into a work without making any mistakes. You want to be the best, but that also makes you question your own self image, which leads to imposter syndrome where you start to question, am I good enough? Could I be better? I’m never going to be successful. Why am I here? Those things start to come up and they start to surface in law school because of that competitive nature.

Rocky Dhir:

In terms of acting as a support to your clients, where do those lessons kind of come in? I mean, what are some of the do’s and don’ts that you tell law students to employ and that you maybe tell lawyers to employ as well? Are there certain tips or I guess bullet points you tell ’em, Hey, avoid this or try doing this?

Alicia Freeman:

We say that people make mistakes, that it’s okay to ask for help. It’s also, it’s important to note where your limitations are, that no one is perfect and your performance in law school isn’t always representative of your success and the practice of law. And some of the dos is maintain your wellbeing, have awareness around substance use, which is huge for lawyers. We always have to bring in the statistics and just identifying great, provide the understanding. You all are in a high risk, high stress work environment, and so oftentimes people who didn’t have substance use issues before tend to develop them in law school or even in their first few years of practicing law.

Rocky Dhir:

We’ve kind of touched on this earlier, but is there kind of a line or a boundary where a lawyer should say, all right, I’m getting a bit too involved emotionally in this case or with this client, and I don’t mean it in an inappropriate way, but just I’m crossing that line where I should have had empathy and now it’s become more sympathy. To go back to what we talked about earlier, how is a lawyer? Do you know when you’ve crossed that threshold? Are there telltale signs? Are there things we should be looking out for?

Alicia Freeman:

I would say kind of going back to what I said, oftentimes lawyers don’t realize they’ve crossed that line until it’s been crossed. And when you wake up and you realize your clients have your personal cell phone number and they’re calling you right beyond your work hours, when they’re asking you to do things that have nothing to do with the work that they’re doing for that client, when they start to take home those emotions and they can’t focus on what’s happening in the present because they’re concerned about this client and what’s happening with them. And there’s some kind of blurred lines there too, right? Because we always have that one client, at least that kind of sticks with us, and it’s like we hope that they’re doing well, but at some point, if it starts to kind of take over you and you can’t separate that emotion and you’re starting to think about them more often than you probably should, those are kind of some telltale signs like, I need to work through this and figure out what’s really happening with me. And if all s fails, you’re unsure where those lines are. Seek counsel, talk to your therapist, reach out to TLA and say, Hey, this is what I’m struggling with. How can you all support me in that?

Rocky Dhir:

What about when the client is somebody that you knew outside of the law? So let’s say it’s a relative or it’s the friend of a relative or just somebody you’re connected with and now they’re in your office and this has happened to me before, but they knew you growing up. They’ve seen you since you were a kid, now you’re a lawyer. And they don’t just see you as a lawyer, they see you as a friend. And so that line can get blurred. It’s probably blurred the minute they sit down in that chair across the desk from you. How do you recommend lawyers deal with that? How do we be an effective friend and still maintain that personal relationship while at the same time maintaining professional boundaries as a lawyer? Are there tricks you can tell us to help us through that?

Alicia Freeman:

Well, yeah. I mean, address it on the front end. This may be a person you potentially run into at the restaurant or whatever, and just say, Hey, I know that we are friends, but I want to help you work with whatever the issue is, whatever case you’re dealing with. Communication is going to be huge. Address it on the front end. Say, Hey, I know we’re friends, but let’s talk about what this will look like for us. Things come up if you feel like I’m not being effective, maybe we can look at someone else taking over your case, but I will say, if we see each other, you want to hang out, I’m totally fine with that, but I just don’t want to talk about what’s happening with the case when we do that. Establishing those boundaries very early on and reestablishing if you have to. But I also say if you can refer out because you don’t want to blur those lines,

Rocky Dhir:

Believe me, in those situations, most of the time we do want to refer it out, but sometimes you just get stuck,

Alicia Freeman:

Sometimes you can’t. Absolutely.

Rocky Dhir:

It’s, mom, I don’t want to do this. And it doesn’t always work out for sure. One final question, Alicia, before we wrap up. This is probably putting on your T lap hat, and maybe this is something you’ve talked about before when you’re on the road, but what’s the one thing you want lawyers to know about and kind of take away when it comes to issues surrounding mental health and counseling?

Alicia Freeman:

Your primary focus should be your mental health. If you are not well, the things around you will become unwell. It’s important for you to understand who you are, understand your background, your triggers, and what are some things to kind of mitigate that, right? The more work you do on the front end, the less work you have to do on the back end. Boundaries are important. They’re going to forever be important. Articulating those boundaries are important, but actually upholding those boundaries are even more important. And there’s always this fear of, well, how would a person respond? Well, if you’re establishing that on the front end, then they already know what to expect from you. But when you try, you’ve worked with a client for months and then all of a sudden you want to set boundaries, that tends to be where we see a lot of issues. So understanding it’s important to articulate that on the front end, but also if all else fails and you don’t know what to do, you don’t know what steps to take. You’re unsure of just how to even verbalize what’s happening. Call TA, we’re here. We are a resource. We are here for every legal professional in the state of Texas, and that’s what we do. We help set you up with all the resources that are necessary for you.

Rocky Dhir:

Well, if mental health is really that important, folks, think about that before you have children. Alright, we all know what that feels like. Try setting up boundaries there. I’m going to call T Lab, be like, my daughter makes me listen to Taylor Swift nonstop. What do I do?

Alicia Freeman:

I have two under two.

Rocky Dhir:

Ooh, ooh.

Alicia Freeman:

So there right now, okay, not Taylor Swift, but Bluey and Little Bear.

Rocky Dhir:

Luckily, the whole Swifty thing is kind of behind us for the moment. So you’re going to have some other annoying artists that you’re going to be listening to in the car every day. I guarantee it. But Alicia, this was fascinating. I learned a lot. I think we all learned a ton through this. So thank you so much for being here and for helping us understand the attorney as the counselor. Thank you so much.

Alicia Freeman:

Thank you for having me. And I do want to leave it with TLAs number, which is 1 803 4 3 8 5 2 7 1 803 4 3 8 5 2 7. We’re available 24 7. So give us a call.

Rocky Dhir:

And what’s the website? The TLA website,

Alicia Freeman:

T-T-L-A-P, helps HEL ps.org. That’s T lap helps.org.

Rocky Dhir:

Perfect. And of course, guys, I want to thank you all for tuning in. I want to encourage you to stay safe, continue being well. If you like what you heard today, please rate and review us wherever you get your podcast. And until next time, remember, life’s a journey, folks. I’m Rocky Deer. Signing off for now.

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