“The Untold Secrets to Thrive as a Lawyer” with Judy Selby

Episode Notes

Transcript

Molly Ranns:

Hello and welcome to another edition of the State Bar of Michigan On Balance Podcast on Legal Talk Network. I’m Molly Ranns

JoAnn Hathaway:

And I’m JoAnn Hathaway. We are thrilled to welcome Judy Selby as our guest today. Judy is the author of the number one bestselling book, the Untold Secrets to Thrive as a Lawyer. She is an award-winning attorney, sports agent, mental performance coach, cyber insurance consultant, speaker, and highly experienced negotiator. Today she’ll be sharing some of the powerful insights from her book and also her impressive career. And with that, Judy, I’m going to turn the mic over to you so you can share even more information about yourself with our listeners.

Judy Selby:

Well, first off, thank you, JoAnn. This is I think my second or third time with you doing this over the years, so I’m grateful for the opportunity to you and to Molly, so thanks for having me. Yes, I released my book last fall and I was delighted that it did so well. I always like to share the tagline of the book because I think it’s kind of important and it kind of sinks well with my personal experience. So the tagline of the book is even if you didn’t go to Harvard or Yale, so I wrote the book last year, kind of covers the 32 years that I practice law. The lessons learned some of the easy ways, some of the hard way things I’ve done myself, things I’ve watched other people do, and I thought it was important to share those lessons with attorneys in the US. Now, a lot of the feedback I’ve gotten though is that this book goes way beyond lawyers that really anybody can learn from us. That was an unexpected and very welcome response to the book as well.

Molly Ranns:

Thank you so much for being here with us today, Judy, and as you talk about the book, I’m hoping you can help our listeners understand really what your purpose was in writing this book.

Judy Selby:

Yeah, well, as I mentioned, I practiced for over three decades and one thing that became clear to me over time, not very much time frankly, was that the best technical lawyers weren’t necessarily the most successful lawyers weren’t necessarily the happiest lawyers and the people that most others would regard as great lawyers. And there’s a lot of reasons that I have concluded that go into that. I wanted to delve into a lot of what I believe those reasons are in the book, but also as our workforce becomes more and more remote, there are less opportunities for mentoring among lawyers, particularly in a law firm environment. If you’re a young lawyer just starting out, you probably don’t have the random and chance encounters with partners in your law firm from just in the same space five days a week or more. As I recount in the book, there are so many of these, I call them accidental mentorship opportunities that I had along the years that really were so valuable to me.

And so I wanted to share those lessons learned and what I perceive are the things that people can do to really stand out in the market and in their law firms get themselves hired, get themselves to do well in their firms, to get clients to become partner if they want to become a partner. I go into quite a bit of the ups and downs, the benefits and the maybe not so great parts of becoming a partner, branding and rebranding, which is so important in today’s market, how to be happy, how to be happy as a lawyer and kind of get out of your own way when you need to.

JoAnn Hathaway:

Judy, one of the things hearing more and more about is how different the professional world looks for new lawyers entering the field today. From your perspective, what are some of the unique challenges, for instance, the Gen Z group, those lawyers are facing when it comes to landing their first job and then once they get it to really thrive once they are there?

Judy Selby:

Yeah, that’s a great question and when you think about it, when a lot of us, I don’t want to date myself, but when a lot of us were kids growing up, we had parents, at least one parent at home. We had brothers and sisters and we were all talking to each other. We weren’t texting with each other, so we were communicating verbally. That same thing continued as we got older, went to college, went to law school. When you look at more recent generations of young lawyers, a lot of them were more like latchkey kids who were home and they grew up as digital natives, which presents tremendous opportunities and advantages for them, I believe coming into the workforce, including the legal workforce. But at the same time, they haven’t learned the verbal communication skills that a lot of us take for granted. And then when you layer on top of that COVID where these kids weren’t even going to school with others, they were going to school through a computer screen.

And so then when they are trying to interview for a job at a law firm, they’re expected to know how to interact with people probably of a different generation than them, how to make small talk with people. And the world of many younger people now is much more isolated than it was for us. So I didn’t grow up with these native skills of dealing with people in that way. And I think when you layer on top of it, the fact that even with rules instituted by law firms requiring lawyers to come into the office, partners can be the worst offenders of that. People got used to working at home, they got good at working from home. We all had long commutes in our lives, and it didn’t bother us until we didn’t have to do it every day. So now the idea of getting some partners into the office who could provide that mentoring and that guidance is very, very challenging.

All these things I think make it difficult for some new attorneys coming into the workplace in terms of just getting hired, knowing how to act in an interview, knowing how to act when you walk into a law firm or when you are doing a remote interview, and then how to succeed when you get there. There’s been some studies and articles written in publications like Forbes and Fortune about, and not specific to law, but how Gen Zers are coming into challenges in the workplace in terms of communication skills, dressing in a certain way and timeliness, things of that nature. And so I think it’s really important for law firms when they’re bringing on new younger attorneys to set expectations and be very, very clear about it, but also to provide not just a list of rules, but mentorship and guidance around these issues to really give their people a leg up so they can succeed.

Molly Ranns:

I think that makes a lot of sense, Judy. And we know that young lawyers have the most significant rates of mental health and substance use issues within the practice of law, and so it makes sense. All of those things that you’re describing. You speak in the book about relationships versus transactions, especially with regard to the business development piece. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

Judy Selby:

Absolutely. I know from personal experience, and again, having practiced for over three decades and fortunately having built large books of business and having very successful client relationships is that you always have to remember you are in the service business. And for me personally, I was always looking to build relationships with people who weren’t even my clients yet. And these are relationships. Sometimes it would take years and years before I would even get any business from them or do business with them. I think treating your clients as human beings first and recognizing that if you are a partner in a law firm and I was an insurance coverage lawyer, and so let’s say I had 50 cases, my client could have 200 cases, and working with people in a way that makes their life easier was always something that I strove to do. And valuing them as human beings who are dealing with children and parents and dogs and cats and all the other drama that everybody else does, and the lawyers who don’t respect and value the relationship and just see it as some numbers that they can put on a spreadsheet at the end of the year and say, well, this is how big my book is.

Those lawyers, unless you’re in a different type of business where relationships don’t matter, those lawyers in my experience, were not that successful and they were not that happy. And so I think to be very successful in all facets as a human being and as a lawyer, approaching client relationships as relationships and not transactions is critical.

JoAnn Hathaway:

Judy, you mentioned something in the book that I think a lot of lawyers don’t naturally think about, especially those trained to focus more on the work that on self-promotion, and that is personal brand. Can you explain what you mean by a personal brand and why you think it’s so important for lawyers to develop one?

Judy Selby:

Yeah, I think it’s more important now than ever. I’ve always thought it was important, but now I think it’s really important in this digital age. So your personal brand is kind of your digital resume now, and I think it’s very unlikely that anybody is going to get hired by either a firm or a company or by a client if they don’t Google you first, so they’re going to Google you. I think their stats showing that people are more likely to look at your LinkedIn profile even before your firm’s website. And that makes sense because there’s an old adage, I didn’t make this up, I’m sure you guys have heard it. People hire people, they don’t hire law firms, and that’s probably true in my experience 90% of the time. And so building a personal brand means letting people know who you are, what you have to offer, what you’re bringing to the marketplace.

Utilizing a tool like LinkedIn is really, really so valuable because you control what your profile says and maybe your firm has some guidelines around that and they monitor it. I’ve never seen that, but I suppose it could happen, but you can be very nimble on there. You can go online and update it quickly as opposed to going through sometimes like a whole rigmarole to get your website bio updated. And so it’s telling the world who you are, what you do, you craft the narrative. And in today’s digital world, it’s really key. It also allows you to say what you want to do. So for example, back in the, I guess it was like the mid 2010s, early 2010s, I was rebranding from kind of a generalist insurance coverage lawyer to cyber the world of cyber insurance, cyber and privacy. And I very purposefully did a big rebrand that way.

I learned as much as I could about cyber. I took courses at MIT, even though I can’t even spell MIT because I’m not technical at all, but I wanted to be able to issue spot and do a better job for my clients. And then I leveraged LinkedIn quite a bit. I did a lot of writing. What I found is when you do writing, and I’ll just say if you’re going to write about something substantive in the law, you really better know what you are saying because you’ll get called out if it’s wrong. And so you really have to study and then once you write, you start getting asked to speak at conferences, you start getting reporters calling you up, you’re asked to be on editorial boards. All these types of things flow from that. So being known as that thought leader in the space is really, really key.

And of course that leads to business development and it also leads to career options if you want to make a move in another direction. It also allows you, if you’re on a platform like LinkedIn, it allows you to build relationships outside of your immediate circle within your law firm or your client world. So I viewed my competition lawyers as my competitor pales. I did not make up that word a friend of mine did. I believe the pie is pretty big. There’s always a lot to go around, but you get to see what’s happening in the market. You can connect with other lawyers in your space, the clients in your space. You can see who’s following your clients. Say, I have a target client and I see them speaking on a panel with this firm or that firm. That’s good for me to know, things of that nature. So I think it’s absolutely mandatory these days to have a current and dynamic social presence on at least LinkedIn and maybe even additional platforms depending on your niche.

Molly Ranns:

Such valuable information. Judy, we are going to take a short break from our conversation with Judy Selby to thank our sponsors. Welcome back.

JoAnn Hathaway:

We’re thrilled to be here today with Judy Selby talking about her number one bestselling book, the Untold Secrets to Thrive as a lawyer.

Molly Ranns:

Judy, we now understand that the definition of wellbeing moves far beyond just the absence of illness or the absence of impairment, and so it’s really about thriving, right? Multidimensionally, can you talk about lawyer wellbeing and how this message is echoed in your book, which helps lawyers not only survive but thrive in their careers?

Judy Selby:

Yeah, I dedicated a whole chapter to this. It’s the last chapter of the book where I really focus on the lawyer as a human being. And it really does have an incredible on your ability to thrive at and be successful as a lawyer. For example, if you’re kind of down and depressed and you’re not feeling great about yourself for whatever reason, highly unlikely that you’re going to say, you know what? I’m going to go out on this freezing cold march night and go to this networking event, or I’m going to put myself out there to pitch for this client or write this article, that type of thing. And if you’re not feeling good about yourself, you may not have good relationships with your colleagues in the workplace or at home. And so recognizing these types of things are all related. I talk a lot about fitness and reading things that inspire you, tuning out.

I’m not telling people to be uninformed. It’s important that we’re all informed, but maybe not binge watch negative news all the time and try to increase the number of positive inputs that you’re taking in on a daily basis, maybe starting your day with some powerful prayer and or powerful affirmations, things of that nature that will pump you up and build you up and allow you to put your best foot forward every day since publishing the book. And if anybody wants it, it’s for free. On my website, I have a goal setting worksheet, and it actually covers what I believe are the six big areas of people’s lives. And for each of these areas, there’s relationships, finances, spiritual fitness and health, personal growth and career. And for each of those, I ask people to put three goals for each category as well as the three daily habits that they should do in order to achieve those goals.

I also have a space for a word of the year. So for example, my word of the year this year is alignment and make sure all my actions are in alignment with what I say my goals are, and I acting in integrity with those goals. And so I literally have this thing laminated. I read it every day and it keeps me grounded. Notice that career is only one sixth of this. Now, I don’t believe that we can all have a perfectly balanced life all the time. I don’t think that should be a goal for people, because if you’re getting ready for a big trial or you’re dealing with an emergency at home, that pendulum will swing back and forth. But I think it’s really, really key to answer your question about wellbeing, is to keep these six areas of your life top of mind and never lose sight of even one of them, even though you may not be spending that much time in that one area because of whatever’s going on in another area for a temporary period of time.

JoAnn Hathaway:

In connection with that, I believe we’ve all seen some lawyers really flourish in this profession while others with similar experience struggle. So Judy, what have you noticed both through your work and your research that really sets successful lawyers apart from the rest?

Judy Selby:

In my view, successful lawyers are the ones who can make themselves do things even when they don’t want to do it. That’s it. You know the person who will go to the networking event, the person who will stay up late and write the brief, the person who will do the extra thing, instead of saying, I don’t feel like it. I don’t feel like it is one of the worst sentences in the history of humanity in my view. I actually have a list and my second book, I’m working on my second book and it’s called, it’s All About My Never Say It Again list. And I don’t feel like it is one of the things on that list because I think it’s such a bad excuse making mechanism that we use. And so I think the lawyers who do the best are the ones who always keep in mind what they really want in the long run versus what they want in the short term.

They want distraction. So they’ll watch Netflix, they’ll want distraction, so they’ll maybe drink too much, they’ll want distraction, maybe they’ll eat too much or just sit on the couch and not do the brief that they’re supposed to do. And I, like many others, have seen lawyers in the fetal position on the floor unable to work, and it’s a horrible thing to see. And so I’m not a therapist, I’m not a mental health professional, and there are certainly times when those resources are needed, but I just think for many lawyers, if they could just get themselves to do the one thing that they would really rather put off, it starts a cycle then of building confidence, building a little bit of momentum, and then you’ll see even if they’re not totally successful when they first do it, you’ll see them grow and be like, well, that didn’t kill me. Lemme try again. Let me do this again. And to me, that’s the main differentiator. The ones who can make themselves do things that they know they should do even though they don’t feel like it.

Molly Ranns:

So Judy, to piggyback I guess off of that, for lawyers who don’t feel like getting out there and networking and public speaking, or maybe this is just really intimidating for them, what message do you have for those folks?

Judy Selby:

Two things I would say always keep your why top of mind. Why did you become a lawyer to begin with? Are you supporting your family? Are you trying to leave a legacy? What is that inner thing that burn inside you that drives you? Keep that top of mind every day, and that’s always your fallback. If you have a really strong desire to succeed for your wife, your husband, your children, and you keep that top of mind, highly unlikely you’re going to just flip on Netflix for the night. The other thing to do with regard to networking and public speaking, those types of things in particular, what I found is that people who are really very apprehensive about it or nervous about it are probably a little bit too focused on themselves and how they look, what they’re going to say. Are they going to be interesting to other people?

I think they feel like there’s a little bit of a spotlight on them if they walk in and they’re by themselves, for example. So I guess my advice there would be to recognize that you’re probably not the center of attention in that way, and if you’ve been invited to speak at a conference, for example, people in that audience are rooting for you. They’re there for a reason. They want your information, they want you to succeed. People aren’t there nitpicking about your hair is out of place or something like that, but if you approach these things instead of focusing on you and how you’re not good enough or you’re not experienced or you’re too old or you’re too young, whatever it may be, instead of focusing on what can I give, what can I learn, where can I add value? Where can I just meet some interesting people and be more interested in them than feel that you need to be interesting yourself, be patient. Again, I fall back on this concept of relationships, not transactions. So when you walk into the networking event, when you’re doing the public speaking and engagement, you’re not doing it so that somebody will walk up to you and hand you a file and say, be my lawyer. You’re doing it to build relationships and by the way, build your brand. And I think approaching it with that mindset should take a lot of pressure off you to walk out with a big book of business to look a certain way and have these unrealistic expectations of yourself.

JoAnn Hathaway:

Judy, there are a couple of concepts in your book that really stood out to me, and I think it’s particularly because they challenge how we often approach our day-to-day thinking. I’d love for you to talk more about what you mean by standards over feelings and how that connects to the idea of getting out of your own way, especially in the context of a legal career.

Judy Selby:

Yeah. Standards over Feelings is very related to what I was just mentioning before. If you use this goal worksheet or whatever works for you, and you set out your standards for how you want to live your life, that’s the standard. The standard is the standard, and you will not fall below that regardless of how you’re feeling. Another way of saying what I said before is that most successful attorneys are not controlled by their feelings. They’re controlled by their standards, their goals, their why, their reasons for doing what they are supposed to do, as opposed to people who are controlled by their feelings, the ones who don’t feel like it, the ones who are lacking in confidence, the ones who are dealing with, maybe I’m not feeling well today, or maybe I’m not a hundred percent, and they would rather, yeah, hell with it. I’m just going to take a sick day today.

It’s this concept of this is who I am as a human being. This is the type of person I am, and this is how I show up. And I don’t let the fact that somebody cut me off in traffic and put me in a bad mood or that like today, I’m having bad allergies all day, so I’m not going to show up and do the podcast, whatever it may be. But you’re able to say, no, no, no. I am not going to let my temporary feelings get in the way of my standards and the things that I really want out of my life and my career.

JoAnn Hathaway:

Thank you so much for all of this valuable information, Judy. It does seem like we have come to the end of our show, and we would like to thank our guests today, Judy Salbi for a wonderful program.

Judy Selby:

It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me. It’s always great to talk to you again, and I really appreciate the opportunity to share about the book and these life lessons that I think can really make a difference in people’s lives and careers.

Molly Ranns:

Thank you again, Judy, and if folks would like to follow up with you personally, what’s the best way to do that?

Judy Selby:

Pop on my website, judy selby.com or on LinkedIn, Judy Selby. I’m very active on LinkedIn. Send me a connection request. There’s several free resources on my website under the tools tab, so there’s the goal setting worksheet. There’s a year-round worksheet to help people prepare for performance reviews, which I think is pretty helpful as well as a public speaking guide, and I’m always updating it. So that’s all free. Go on the website, help yourself to any and all of that material.

Molly Ranns:

Wonderful. This has been another edition of the state, Barb Michigan On Balance Podcast. I’m JoAnn Hathaway. And I’m Molly Rands. Until next time. Thank you for listening.

Announcer:

Thank you for listening to the State Bar of Michigan On Balance Podcast, brought to you by the State Bar of Michigan, and produced by the broadcast professionals at Legal Talk Network. If you’d like more information about today’s show, please visit legal talk network.com, subscribe via Apple Podcasts and RSS, find the State Bar of Michigan and Legal Talk Network on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn, or download Legal Talk Network’s, free app in Google Play and iTunes. The views expressed by the participants of this program are their own and do not represent the views of, nor are they endorsed by Legal Talk Network or the State Bar of Michigan or their respective officers, directors, employees, agents, representatives, shareholders, and subsidiaries. None of the content should be considered legal advice. As always, consult a lawyer.